Guns and Cops
and Columnists

NJLawman.com
Police and Law Enforcement News
Monday, February 11, 2008 9:30 a.m.

Usually, the writers don’t stray beyond their expertise.   Last month, however, a column was published in the Bergen Record that went on a rant about municipal law enforcement agencies, specifically the Wayne Police Department, having MP5 submachine guns.

We could bring up Columbine where we learned that we can no longer wait for SWAT teams in active shooter situations.  First responding officers must act immediately and have the weapons to do so.

And they'll be sure to point out that while the death of the officer is a tragedy, it was part of our job.

Your Responses

I'm a deputy in southern Ohio.  We patrol a county with 500 square miles.  Usually 3 deputies split up the county on each shift if we are lucky.  I carry a Remington 700 308 sniper rifle ..a car-15..45 auto, an MP 40, a 12 gauge Benelli and a 38 back up on my vest.  If I could carry a bazooka I would  The author of the first statement on this particular blog has apparently never had to go up some hollows at night where you know the people are that are waiting on you or having to check out a school alarm by yourself knowing your back up is miles and many many minutes away.  I can't see the difference of going room to room clearing a building here in southern Ohio or as a soldier looking for enemy combatants.   Point is...I'm going to carry as much firepower as i can just in case I need it.  After I watched the Los Angeles shoot out, I vowed never to be out gunned.  So far I've made good on it.

Stay safe to you all

Sorry guys no matter what the press tells you, we aren't at "War" here.  You cops are civilians just the same as me.  I'm a veteran, ex-cop etc...and I don't agree that you guys need automatic weapons any more than I do. 

And this statement sickens me...

"If not clothing designed to blend in with the landscape, what exactly should one wear to a combat situation?"

You guys aren't the military, you are peace officers, public servants, not soldiers.  Soldiers go to combat...not cops.  Change your mindset, and maybe the public will change it's perception.

NJLawman.com Response:  Sir, no one claimed we were at war.  We're not sure to what you are referring with that little ditty.

You also said, "I don't agree that you guys need automatic weapons any more than I do." 

Really? 

Do you respond to calls of shots fired?  Do you respond to calls of crimes in progress?  Do you respond to calls of crimes being committed by armed career criminals or gang members?

And, why would the statement about wearing camouflage sicken you?  If a SWAT team is being called out to a combat situation, what would you expect them to wear?  We thought that wearing attire which would provide a tactical advantage and enhance officer safety would make sense.  We would love to hear your recommendation.

Finally, yes, police officers are public servants and not soldiers.  But, there are times when police officers go to combat.  That is just a fact of life.  Get over it.

So, instead of jumping in front of your computer to come up with a witty and dominating response, here's a suggestion: sit down and grab your checkbook, write a donation check to your nearest PBA or FOP local, attend the next funeral for a fallen police officer and say a prayer for him or her, and begin writing letters to newspapers supporting your local police department.

If the whole combat thing is still bothering you, visit this site.  As of this writing, there are 19,288 men and women who will also disagree with you.

By the way, your statement, "You cops are civilians just the same as me."

Not even close.

-NJLawman.com

Don't bite the hand that feeds you. If you want to waste the budget on stupid tools that you don't need that's fine. But money doesn't come from nowhere. I'd rather have sufficient equipment and well paid police officers instead of extravagant equipment and low paid (low quality) police officers.

Some further info as to why a police department would decide to utilize MP5s: As police officers we need to qualify with our duty weapon twice per year (which I think should be raised to 4 times per year and include drills/training as part of the qualification). Those of us that carry M-4 rifles must qualify 4 times per year. Because the MP5 uses the same 9mm ammunition that our duty weapons use we only need to qualify 2 times per year. The MP5 also isn't as expensive as an M-4 rifle. That said a police department might view it as a cost savings both in equipment and overtime expense (2 less qualifications per year) to carry the MP5 vs carrying the M-4. Just my 2 cents.

Mr. Kelly, police officers in this country don't get paid for what they do, we get paid for what we might have to do... The next time you put on a uniform, strap on a weapon, go out on patrol and respond to burglar alarms, domestic violence calls, calls for service and etc. Then you can tell me what it's like to be a police officer, but for now stick to what you know and that's writing about what you don't know... You're clueless about what me and my brother and sister police officers across this country do on a daily basis.

-Central Jersey Cop #199

Well I guess you just would not understand unless you were a police officer. These days guns even more powerful than an MP5's are readily available on the streets and to drug dealers. The regular service weapons like Glock 40's are no match for these high powered rifles. That being said I think every town should have a few assault rifles on hand when needed. We live in a different world today people...Wake Up.

Typical liberal NJ style of thinking.  You wonder why NJ is in the shape it's in.

Politics and liberal left wing thinking are distracting everyone from day to day reality based functions. Comparing Wayne to Ringwood?  There is no comparison, demographically, geographically, politically, in population density, square mileage, or crime rate. Ringwood is small and run like the small town it is, Wayne is an almost city and run like an almost city. Granted crime is down in Wayne but that's not because of the politicians.  The local uniformed police have more to do with the drop or reduction in crime then any other factor, so give them the tools they need to the job. 

Dekalb , Illinois. A University town not unlike Wayne, NJ. Gunman kills 5 and then kills himself in a large lecture hall with 162 students present.

I'll bet any one of those student and their families would disagree the (Writer?) of that editorial. As would the victims & families of every other university, high school, middle/ junior high school, elementary school and  mall shooting victims. (Wayne has malls too) I up in Hackensack, NJ reading the Bergen Record.

Upon growing up and reading the many other quality papers available, I have learned long ago that the Record is sorely lacking in talent in many areas. That horrible editorial proves it. By the way, the MP5 is a sub machine gun that fires a 9mm round. the same size round that any 9mm pistol fires. (That writer?) should learn about weapons and their purpose before condemning those of us who strap them on and risk life and limb to protect his safety and freedoms which he so obviously takes for granted.

Mike Kelly has been bashing police departments and cops for years. This is not the first bad article he has written so nobody that has been on the job for years should be shocked. He is a total idiot and never gets his facts straight before writing his articles.

Keep safe!!

-North NJ Cop

It's obvious by the article, the journalists with the Record have no clue about the Police Community being able to deal with the unexpected in society.           

-Colonel #164

-Been to Baghdad.

-Been to fallujah.

Still a cop

  Bullets don't descriminate depending on the part of the world your in.  In my opinion you can never have enough firepower.  Good job Wayne PD, I wish my dept. had the guts to get some more firepower.  Longest recorded kill with a 9mm handgun- Army special forces Afghanistan- 75 meter head shot (had to get lucky on that one).  Longest recorded kill with a M4- God only knows.  So the next time someone is shooting at a cop from 100 meters out, we'll just wait until he runs out of ammo I guess. Haha.  Or with the proper weapon, just kill the SOB with one shot so a stray round doesn't hit the moron that wrote this article.

-Cop/Veteran

When Mike Kelly, a 30 year veteran journalist with the Record, next responds to a report of a hostile interview in progress he should leave his battery operated,  voice activated, digital tape recorder with 256  meg of memory and up to 34 hours of recording time and a wireless mic. at the office and take instead a number 2 pencil. 

-A 41 year vet.

What ever it takes to +do your job do it. Anyone who puts on a police uniform needs all of the protection he can get in this day and age.  Thank you.

-Lori Johnson, Fl.

Every law enforcement officer needs to be equipped with the proper firearms to adapt and overcome any situation that may arise. School shootings are on a rise along with malls as well.  The job of law enforcement is to serve and to protect.  That is what the police do.  If you don't like it move to Baghdad.

Who ever wrote this article needs to go drink bleach.

An MP5 is a 9mm SMG, BIG DEAL. In fact, that is not enough firepower. You know nothing about guns, you are a crappy journalist, and you should resign and get into the garbage business.

What I don't understand is that the MP5 shoots 9mm rounds, they are making it sound like a belt fed 7.62x45mm fully automatic machine gun! They must not know much about ballistics but I'm pretty sure a 9mm stray round is "safer" on the streets to innocent civilians then a 5.56mm or a 7.62mm round, now don't get me wrong I know it could kill but.ahhhh anyway I support out Police Officers. Keep up the good work!

-USMC Veteran 

In this time and era, there are Monday morning quarterbacks whose only desire is to criticize the police. 

When the *?! hits the fan I am expected to charge the Hill and suppress the threat by all means necessary.

I don't go into a situation thinking that everything will be warm and fuzzy because that's when cops get killed.

Every shots fired, armed barricaded subject, suicidal person etc. I am expected to handle the situation.  In my department I am expected to act accordingly and decisively.

The actors could have tech 9, ak-47, sawed-off shotgun. So what is the problem with police officers having the same weaponry that our soldiers have?  I will neutralize any threat to the community by all means necessary and if i have the appropriate tools then i will overwhelm the threat and always be victorious.

Gentleman if you have them........carry them. If there's ever a situation at the Bergen record building respond with a six shooter water gun. You can give these reporters cannons and they still won't do the job we do.

Keep up the great work and be safe.

-North Jersey Sgt

I really hate a writer that thinks he/she is playing it smart by acknowledging a fact such as:

"Police firearms experts rightly point out that cops never know what sort of mayhem will emerge in even the most placid of places. Consider the mass murders at various schools in recent years. In almost every case, the killings took place in suburban or rural towns."

They then cling to the "sensational" points that they are trying to make. How do you see the point of the Police expert and then try to interject your own views as those the public should embrace? Either the expert is right or he isn't!!

I don't want someone who is not doing my job to tell me what equipment I need to do it. If this writer is so concerned with public safety why doesn't he demand to know why car manufacturers sell cars that will drive 200mph when there are no speed limits over 70mph in this country? I'm guessing it's because there's no room to spin an anti-police column out of it.

Lt. Col. Dave Grossman explained it the best : People (civilians) are sheep, the criminals are wolves, and yes brothers and sisters we (the police) are the sheep dogs.  The sheep don't like the sheep dog to bite them in the ass when they wander from the pack (example: traffic violation) but when the wolf comes the sheep call upon who?  They call upon the sheep dog who will protect them against the wolf. 

If you are a sheep you believe that the world is a utopia and nothing bad will ever happen to you.  What separates a sheep from a sheep dog is that a sheep dog knows that the world is not perfect and the wolf will eventually show itself. 

The author of this article is a sheep, nothing more.  He believes that a suburban town such as Wayne will never fall victim to the wolf. 

I am more concerned about his distorted views and the fact that readers of his distorted views may adopt those same views as their own. 

Keep up the great work Wayne PD and stay safe. 

Excellent editorial - great job, NJ Lawman...

Let's not forget our everyday gangbangers. 

While Wayne is one of America's safest communities, it is near Paterson and Newark, both of whom have tremendous gang presence issues, as identified by the State Police municipal gang survey.  I'm sure that Wayne also has gang issues.  Wayne is also home to William Paterson University and a major shopping mall.  While the MP5 may be considered overkill by the liberal media, I'm sure that the police department did quite a bit of research before choosing a weapon that best suited their needs.

Mark Blair

I read this article and I'm outraged, appalled, even offended to an extent.  This hack reporter Mike Kelly is clearly nothing more than an outsider looking in that contributes to the Democratic Machine that runs this state further into the ground with every passing day.  He has no idea what us officers do day in and day out.  He has no idea of what we deal with as the first to arrive and how a situation can go from tame to nightmarish in literally the blink of an eye.

Let’s also not forget that all of these officers who may be called to dress in SWAT gear and carrying these sub machine guns and assault rifles must go through extensive and continuous training to be able to handle them.  We are putting these weapons in the hands of people that are sworn to protect and who are trained extensively.  

As cheesy as this sounds and I'm sure you can all agree, we all took an oath on the day that we were hired that we would protect those that cannot protect themselves.  At times, putting this oath into action requires extreme measures.  But, that’s what we train for and as officers.  We must always be ready to receive that call and take the appropriate action and to deal with it in the way that we know how to.  It's as simple as that. 

Brothers and sisters, please stay safe out there and take care of each other.  We must continue to look after one another because these days no one else will.

-An Annoyed Cop 

Clearly, just another ignorant and uneducated member of the media.  Perhaps Wayne was listed as a safe place to live.  That’s nice.  I am sure that Jonesboro, Ark., Littleton, Co., and every other small rural or suburban area that had an active shooter incident, was also considered as “safe.”

He is right that we need to defend ourselves, however, with the active shooter situation we need to be able to quickly and safely defend others by stopping the shooter.  But to imply that we are like Rambo, come on!  We don’t proactively go out shooting others.  We are the defenders of our civilized society.

Does it make sense to go to a gun fight with just a handgun?  No.  We bring long guns, and invite all of our “friends” with long guns.  We want something fast, high powered and with a high round capacity to stop the shooter.  We also want something intimidating, in case the shooter decides to “quit” before we have to end it.  The MP5 is an ideal weapon for that.

As to Wayne – it’s a large township with many malls, schools, shopping centers, businesses, and residences.  It’s close to some cities; Paterson, Clifton, Passaic, and Newark come to mind.  While ANY location has the potential for violence, I’d say Wayne has odds stacked against it already.

I would suggest that Mr. Kelly read some of the writings by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman about combat, war, etc.  As he says, police are warriors and this Country is at war.  He speaks the truth.

- North NJ Sgt.

"You have to love the secular progressive democrat liberals of New Jersey. It's just not surprising anymore."... Couldn't say it better myself bro. How about the guy that just shot up the council meeting down south?? Bet that was a smaller town then Wayne, and for that matter most towns in NJ. Just goes to show, you never know what you're going to face, and no matter what we do we'll always be criticized. Why do they even bother giving us guns anymore??? God forbid we defend ourselves; the way we were trained to, we'll only lose our jobs thanks to the liberals. These people make me sick.

-Sincerely,
-A pissed off cop

I really can't say more than you guys said. Great response from NJLawman here...

First of all, would this moron reporter criticize a small town contractor for owning heavy duty construction equipment? NO

But a Police Officer owning an automatic weapon???? Oh my God... He must be some Rambo wannabe.

As I always say. Better to have a tool and not need it, than need it and not have it. Great job by NJLawman illustrating this point by bringing up the Columbine incident and all the criticism of the first responders there.

As far as this quote from the article, "The irony is that the growth of suburban SWAT units and their high-tech weapons came at a time when citizens were crying out for cops to get out of their cars more often and engage in face-to-face, non-threatening community policing."
--My two cents on this nonsense. I am all for community policing, and treating the public with respect. But sometimes I can't hop out and talk, and I can't wave to everyone walking down the street because I have a job to do. My job is to keep people safe. It is not to be "your" friend. I might not always come off as a great guy, but if you're being held at gunpoint, do you want me to be trained and equipped to take that person out or do you want me to a friendly, smiling warm individual who stops to shoot the breeze with every passerby in the local strip mall?

The best part of this article (for demonstrating how dumb the author is) is that despite all the criticism of this dept for outfitting officers with MP5's it cites testimony that supports police officers carrying automatic weapons in this paragraph, "Police firearms experts rightly point out that cops never know what sort of mayhem will emerge in even the most placid of places. Consider the mass murders at various schools in recent years. In almost every case, the killings took place in suburban or rural towns."

So this dipshit condemns something in his entire article but includes an entire paragraph supporting the point that he is arguing against. I hope he knows what would happen to me as a police officer if I exhibited such incompetence, I'd lose my job. Hopefully one day he does too.

As always, stay safe everyone.

As a P.O. and a strong opposition of the press, I hate to say that I somewhat agree.  Yes, we never know what will erupt and being outpowered is something we can't let happen, but why in the world do we need to carry heavier armament than our troops carry in through the streets of Baghdad.  Let's be a little realistic guys, an m-4 will provide you with plenty of firepower in any combat related situation.

I used to work for Wayne Township and now I work in the city of Newark.  How hard does anyone think it is for one of these outstanding citizens, a.k.a. gang members or lifelong criminals, to hop on a bus or take a train down to the Willowbrook mall and start poppin off some rounds if they feel like it.  I know for a fact that a lot of Wayne's shoplifting arrests are made from citizens with Newark addresses.  That being said, do Wayne cops not deal with the same dirt bags that Newark does? Of course they do, but it's not unlikely for Newark ERT to pull up on scene and hop out with assault rifles.  Talk about receiving instantaneous respect at a scene.  Wayne has a bunch of lakes too...maybe having a marine unit trained to rescue is too much like the seals too...don't worry boys, your job doesn't go unappreciated!!!

Don't forget Wayne has Willowbrook Mall, as well as many other shopping centers...do you think there is enough time to muster a Response Team to respond to an active shooter in the mall? 

What if you, Mr. Mike Kelly, were in the mall with your family shopping when this happens?? I think your going to want that first Officer on scene to have a reasonable defense.  I used to work security in the mall before I went into L.E. and I know that is the last thing those Officers in Wayne ever want to hear, and a weapon they never want to use, but when it happens they'll be ready(and it will happen, I hate to say it). 

Wayne PD is an elite dept. in NJ and is just another target on the media's L.E. Dartboard.  Be Alert....Stay Alive

Rated the "most dangerous city in the country", we very much need weapons like these in the City of Camden. Our rinky dink Rugers are no match for the high powered weapons that we pull off the street each end every day. Please don't give into the liberal a-holes who armchair quarterback when things are in hindsight. You are prepared and that is the Bottom Line.

Be Safe, Sincerely,

-The Savage Hunter....

You have to love the secular progressive democrat liberals of New Jersey. It's just not surprising anymore.

I believe that it is a mistake to not respond to these articles with the appropriate factual information regarding the use, and potential need for this type of weaponry. Sure there are the extreme left, liberal types that will never get it, but most of these are anti-authority of any kind, and they usually reveal themselves as such to more than just the police.

There are also a great many reasonable people who are uninformed, and have little else to go on besides what they are exposed to via media. For the sake of these people we should be present the argument for our methods as emphatically as our detractors bash us. The unfortunate violent events that happen somewhere in this country on an almost weekly basis illustrate the need for police to have SWAT capabilities better than any argument any of us could write.

"The irony is that the growth of suburban SWAT units and their high-tech weapons came at a time when citizens were crying out for cops to get out of their cars more often and engage in face-to-face, non-threatening community policing."

Police are forced into a position where they have to just ignore their critics, and their rhetoric. They will always look at law enforcement as little more than a guard dog. They want the dog docile, submissive, and out of the way. Do not bark. Do not show teeth. Wear a bow. Be cute.

As for the 'non-threatening community policing' thing...I could think of no one this benefits more than the criminal. Police should conduct themselves as professionals with the public obviously, but an element of intimidation (force of presence is on the use of force scale in this state for a reason) is a tool in the box. We wear military style uniforms, tight haircuts (usually), body armor, and openly carry weapons. If you keep yourself in shape, that only adds to the cards that are stacked against you as far as not looking intimidating.

We could always switch to Dockers, golf shirts, and concealed weapons for patrol. We could then adopt a philosophy of non-stop friendliness, and giving warnings for any violations of law, but while all the liberal critics would be happier (maybe) would this be a benefit to society, or to the criminals that prey on society? Would this increase public safety, or benefit those that who care little for the safety of others?

Amen. The record has done this for years and will continue to do so. I hope everyone starts showing them the same respect they give us.

Its unbelievable how those who know nothing about what they speak of love to rant and complain, its pathetic.

I am a police officer in the NYPD. When I read this I was appalled.

What bothers me is the writer said Wayne is the safest suburban area in the 2005. Well correct me if I am wrong but I think Littleton, Colorado was one of the safest as well. Columbine and just recently the Omaha mall shooter changed everything.

A handgun is not a weapon you want to go in these situations with when the gunman themselves are carrying assault rifles. What bothers me is the writer is attacking and spending too much energy on the wrong group (police officers). What he should be writing about is how we need tougher gun laws.

Look at 2008 alone. Within the past week a kid opened fire in LA killed his father and two brothers and a decorated LAPD SWAT member. Then that same day a gun man opened fire on a small SUBURBAN town council meeting killing two officers and three others people and wounding others. Kirkwood hits home a little more because it's similarity to Wayne.

The problem is not the Wayne Police department. The problem is there is too many guns on the streets of this country and police departments everywhere including Wayne need the firepower to stop the force when it comes there way.

Be Safe out there, everyone!